tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5875356.post2500461319402104446..comments2008-11-24T16:13:17.547Zdave bishhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02894433115379089423noreply@blogger.comBlogger22125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5875356.post-6028376486715155812008-11-24T16:13:00.000Z2008-11-24T16:13:00.000Z2008-11-24T16:13:00.000Z

"defining everything in a logical format wasn't on the early church agenda..."Though there clearly were common formulations of truth, and they could speak of "contending for the faith" and of elders being qualified (in part) by holding to and being able to teach sound doctrine... That might not be logically defining everything, but clearly some consensus...

dave bishhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02894433115379089423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5875356.post-28288628332043415602008-08-08T21:03:00.000+01:002008-08-08T21:03:00.000+01:002008-08-08T21:03:00.000+01:00

I guess it depends on what it means if they 'nail' something. What must you believe and what do you have freedom with, those are huge questions which have great potential to divide. So wisdom is much required if they walk down that road. Of course Driscoll could be wrong - defining everything in a logical format wasn't on the early church agenda...

Philhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02924050376023993196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5875356.post-28832919765364979162008-08-03T20:13:00.000+01:002008-08-03T20:13:00.000+01:002008-08-03T20:13:00.000+01:00

Phil,Thanks for the author correction. The challenge is to not be too tight and not be too broad isn't it. I imagine to grow Newfrontiers might have to nail itself more formally on the Arminian/Calvinism issue - though I though Driscoll was perceptive in recognising that the norm in Newfrontiers is Calvinist but not exclusively so, and he gave some good nods to that as he spoke.

dave bishhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02894433115379089423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5875356.post-72664854144081353492008-07-26T09:22:00.000+01:002008-07-26T09:22:00.000+01:002008-07-26T09:22:00.000+01:00

someone mentioned the importance and attitude of the leadership as the determining factor in how the statemnent of faith impacts/affects things.Richard Cunningham seems to have exemplified someone who's genuinely very open and good at bringing people together. A very famous charismatic leader and supporter of UCCF was concerned that the DB could easily be misunderstood and misused, yet was

Chrishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17277300338582244889noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5875356.post-72697674153725799902008-07-25T17:02:00.000+01:002008-07-25T17:02:00.000+01:002008-07-25T17:02:00.000+01:00

I'm cautious of being too 'tight' in defining what we do and how we do it. Church plants vary enormously, and there must be some room for theological discussion. For example I am Arminian in theology but happy in a generally Calvinist movement. I believe in substitutionary atonement but I see much truth in what NT Wright has to say. Too tight and it becomes controlling, too loose and it becomes

Philhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02924050376023993196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5875356.post-87156006709668163492008-07-25T16:31:00.000+01:002008-07-25T16:31:00.000+01:002008-07-25T16:31:00.000+01:00

Standard issue EA evangelicalism is taken as the foundation.Believer's baptism is definitely a deal breaker for newfrotniers.So would be baptism in the holy spirit.So would complimentarianism leading to male eldership.So would some level of statement on the "sovereignty of God" but that's a tough one to call because there are not many 5 point calvinists about.Non essentials of belief would

Blue, with a hint of amberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17689914726284208496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5875356.post-43020254811394507172008-07-25T16:04:00.000+01:002008-07-25T16:04:00.000+01:002008-07-25T16:04:00.000+01:00

I think the recent changes made to the Evangelical Free Churches of America's Doctrinal Statement are encouraging (see here and here). It is an example of how a "denomination" can adapt their statement to face new challenges without abandoning original core beliefs.How could Newfrontiers revise or expand on its core beliefs? If EFCA wants, it can tighten or loosen its requirements, e.g. it could

Ben Stevensonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08180387993747753614noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5875356.post-17843865751492435242008-07-25T14:50:00.000+01:002008-07-25T14:50:00.000+01:002008-07-25T14:50:00.000+01:00

and I seemed to just waffle on about everything...

Blue, with a hint of amberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17689914726284208496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5875356.post-39577464834519327722008-07-25T14:33:00.000+01:002008-07-25T14:33:00.000+01:002008-07-25T14:33:00.000+01:00

I suspect i should take the rap for bringing up Anglicans. Many apologies!

Quaerentiahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18087586855317422065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5875356.post-17998776967244641322008-07-25T14:32:00.000+01:002008-07-25T14:32:00.000+01:002008-07-25T14:32:00.000+01:00

We have to realise the disaster of bickering... really tragic.Off-topic, well yeh. You start a post about doctrine and newfrontiers and it ends up all about Anglicans and CUs... c'est la vie. This is blogging!

dave bishhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02894433115379089423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5875356.post-86502227208126136472008-07-25T14:04:00.000+01:002008-07-25T14:04:00.000+01:002008-07-25T14:04:00.000+01:00

Like all these things different people will have different experiences of the same people.I look at some comments or statements made about people in newfrontiers churches and I just can't believe my ears at times! It sounds just so far from what I know.I think the start of, and development of Fusion was a big wake up call for the christian union movement. It felt like a watershed moment for

Blue, with a hint of amberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17689914726284208496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5875356.post-68814742271349438902008-07-25T13:49:00.000+01:002008-07-25T13:49:00.000+01:002008-07-25T13:49:00.000+01:00

David, "Terry Virgo speaking at Word Alive? That speaks volumes to me!!!" You should have heard him at Forum 2005. Outstanding, 2009 will be one to look forward to. Maybe that wouldn't have happened a decade earlier... ability to change is good, and it seems to me that UCCF is now more true to it's vision/values/doctrine than it was.Having just checked some more of your blog I realise that you

dave bishhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02894433115379089423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5875356.post-61693482256080394702008-07-25T13:26:00.000+01:002008-07-25T13:26:00.000+01:002008-07-25T13:26:00.000+01:00

I am really sorry for not making the point clearer.I think it is a tragic shame that evangelicals standing firm within the anglican church are being type-cast as one issue campaigners when actually they are standing firm on their belief in, and approach to scripture - it is just the media and church politics that has made it about one issue at this time.It brings great sadness that brothers and

Blue, with a hint of amberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17689914726284208496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5875356.post-40638410468320654572008-07-25T13:21:00.000+01:002008-07-25T13:21:00.000+01:002008-07-25T13:21:00.000+01:00

Just to respond quickly to BLUE, do you actually think we chose to debate over homosexuality!? No, I'm sure you don't! That's the last thing we want - but i can almost guarantee that it is one of the presenting issues in ANY denomination which has liberal elements - because it is where the liberalising influences in western culture are fighting their corner most assiduously. In some ways, what's

Quaerentiahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18087586855317422065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5875356.post-77749218765521385382008-07-25T13:20:00.000+01:002008-07-25T13:20:00.000+01:002008-07-25T13:20:00.000+01:00

Systems, structures and statements... we need them as we grow. It's fine to not start out clear on everything (who does?)... but as we move to a second generation and beyond we'll need them, and like you say we'll waste lots of resources, money, time and opportunities if we don't.

dave bishhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02894433115379089423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5875356.post-24331958631423114842008-07-25T13:15:00.000+01:002008-07-25T13:15:00.000+01:002008-07-25T13:15:00.000+01:00

The greatest positive of a really messy situation regarding Steve Chalke and the atonement debate has been just how much evangelicals have now found they have in common. Terry Virgo speaking at Word Alive? That speaks volumes to me!!!What I don't want to happen is that newfrontiers becomes cast as the people who are the same as other charismatics except we "don't like women" which is what I

Blue, with a hint of amberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17689914726284208496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5875356.post-2172119235184545592008-07-25T13:06:00.000+01:002008-07-25T13:06:00.000+01:002008-07-25T13:06:00.000+01:00

Mark W, you have some cool resources at City. Deep appreciation church history is vital for the future... less we repeat mistakes or just fail to realise our presuppositions.

dave bishhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02894433115379089423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5875356.post-26179855254554399932008-07-25T13:04:00.000+01:002008-07-25T13:04:00.000+01:002008-07-25T13:04:00.000+01:00

David, I can only say I'm sorry for the abuse you received. If it's any encouragement, the climate has changed as charismatic theology has become more understood and accepted. The irony is is that I suspect both sides back then felt like the other made them second class citizens... we have to learn from this. Hence my recent posts about the importance of love in unity.I guess one of the issues

dave bishhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02894433115379089423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5875356.post-58061570416370134142008-07-25T12:48:00.000+01:002008-07-25T12:48:00.000+01:002008-07-25T12:48:00.000+01:00

I think we need to strike a balance between doctrinal statements and getting the "founding fathers" if you like to map out what they believe and share their experiences.My experience of a Vineyard Church I was a member of is that no matter how many times they mentioend the "Vineyard Values" they were not heading in the same direction that Wimber had been.My experience of the UCCF is that a

Blue, with a hint of amberhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17689914726284208496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5875356.post-67508759164661688002008-07-25T12:15:00.000+01:002008-07-25T12:15:00.000+01:002008-07-25T12:15:00.000+01:00

You do seem to get a lot of charities certainly, that have slipped far far away from their original beliefs and actions. I guess part of it is that no-one thought to define their doctrinal statement and so when someone goes "hey, isn't helping improve social conditions the first thing we need to do... just as important as... the most important thing... the only thing we do" they can't turn around

Mark Walleyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11494584137097472574noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5875356.post-29575572992842693512008-07-25T10:37:00.000+01:002008-07-25T10:37:00.000+01:002008-07-25T10:37:00.000+01:00

Mark,That's very true. Statements are useless if not held centrally. The CofE is a warning to all of us in this area. The apparent ignorance of doctrinal statements is part of what puts some of having them in the first place.The much ignored Anglican doctrine is probably one of the only things that makes it salvagable... a fresh movement can rise there from the ashes of the institutions and

dave bishhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02894433115379089423noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5875356.post-87343969027976480752008-07-25T10:30:00.000+01:002008-07-25T10:30:00.000+01:002008-07-25T10:30:00.000+01:00

This is a very interesting point and i think helpful. But we shouldn't forget the flip side - while doctrinal statements are (i think) essential, we mustn't ever rely on them to do our work for us. What matters next, once you have your statement, is to appoint leaders that keep to it (or rather that are prepared to amend it within the limits of authority set out by that statement - eg the Bible)

Quaerentiahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/18087586855317422065noreply@blogger.com